Relationships in-game

A little while ago, wow.com published a touching story about a couple who found each other in-game and fell in love. Since yesterday I posted on motivations, this story came to my mind.

A few thoughts related to this are around the social aspects of gaming, guild management, relationships and the bonds that bring people together within a guild.

  • there are a few hardcore guilds I know of who do not recruit women, because they (wrongly) think they cause drama. This is a whole topic on its own, but the fact is any person can cause drama and gender is irrelevant. I have always found women to be an asset actually, often they tone-down what can otherwise be an overly testosterone-fuelled environment.
    • this topic has come up on Matticus and wow-ladies two years ago, plus see comments for more
    • male guild leaders who cannot distinguish gender from a person’s behaviour have just proven in fact they have issues women, and are generalising because they cannot see situations clearly.
  • Kadomi raids happily and very successfully with an all-girls guild, which is damn cool
  • RJK raids in a Christian-ethos guild, he found them because his kids like to watch him game and the last thing he wants is some punk swearing like a trooper when his kids are there.

Lastly, to close out I just found this article I’d bookmarked a while ago, about addiction becoming so extreme it ends the real-life marriage. Fair warning to all of us passionate/addicted players (like me).

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13 comments to Relationships in-game

  • I certainly agree, women I’ve raided with haven’t been any more drama-prone than guys, and often they’ve been extremely rock-solid raiders, in every role.

    Most recently, my raid tonight’s drama was entirely caused by an app who we brought in due to low numbers. This guy (yes, male) thought he knew everything and repeatedly corrected the raid lead – something he’d done before. In any case, fortunately he will not be getting a ginvite. I certainly don’t want the drama he’d bring to the guild.

    Anyone can be a pleasure to raid with, and of course, anyone can make raiding a real drag.

  • senior dating

    I dont think that “drama” is a valid reason to exclude women from raids.  But there might be a few…  There is a certain sense of fraternity in an all guys guild that, I think, will be hard to recreate with women on board.  Also, when tough decisions need to be made I think women are more prone to let emotional considerations rule, independently of whether it is objectively the best decision.  Anyway, just my take.

  • RJK

    It’s definitely a fine line we addicted players walk with RL. 
    Along with that is the fact I have met some players I raid with in real life and they are just like they are online which was a relief.

  • Veneretio
    Twitter: veneretio

    I’m interested in exactly what hardcore guilds these are. Everyone seems to always talk about the issue without actually showing examples. Also, it intrigues me that Kadomi’s guild that only allows girls is somehow acceptable whereas the opposite is not.
    Frankly, the whole issue I think is based entirely on too much conjecture.

    • Kadomi
      Twitter: Kadomi

      I think there’s a difference in perception between my kind of guild and the hardcore guilds excluding women, because the reasoning behind it is different. The Daughters guilds on Bronzebeard were formed in April/May 2005, when WoW was not as huge as it is today, and when the game was very heavily male-dominated, more than it is today. The two guilds were created as safe havens. It’s not that we don’t enjoy playing with guys, and we certainly take along boyfriends, spouses, friends to our raids.

      The hardcore guilds exclude women as inferior players or drama magnets, and that’s a connotation that I am really not comfortable with be. There will always be individuals that will cause drama or use their gender to get access to shinies, but I would assume that at the level of play of top guilds they could enforce individuals to stop any such behavior.

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    There’s a big difference between: (a) a male guild prejudicially saying “women cause drama, therefore go away”, to (b) the minority population [women], forming their own group in a positive fashion.

    Another factor is that, on average, women players are older and male players younger. So women forming together may also represent a ‘mature players only’ element of bonding. Source http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000194.php

    Men are about 85% of players, so that’s a big majority (source http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001369.php).

    In sociology, it’s common for a minority proportion (women) to want to be with one another just for solidarity. I think it’s unhealthy for male guilds to negatively categorise all women players and to define themselves by their rejection of women. I’d be supportive if an all-male guild defined itself in a positive way like “raiding blokes who talk about tools, cars and fishing” as opposed to negatively like “only men, cos women cause drama”.

    I did come across a few ‘no women’ guilds, will see if I can find them again and provide names. I actually read it in their recruitment policies.

    Findings (updated as I go): Nick Yee interview, Impervious guild say “no women”, they’re world 23 (screenshot)…

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    Vene’s tweet got a few more results on no-girls-guilds: KhiTree found ‘Months Behind’, Lysanne mentioned VANQUISH (I actually have an unpublished interview with them on another topic, they recently removed the ‘no girls’ policy it seems), and Kadomi knew of ‘No Chicks Allowed’ (that is the guild name and policy). Vanquish are a highly-ranked guild, which was one I had in mind when writing the OP.

    • Tristan
      Twitter: theelitists

      Let me try to explain the real reason why a lot of top end competitive raiding guilds do not raid with women and unfortunately it is not as misogynistic as it’s being painted out to be.

      Now I can’t speak for every guild, but I can at least speak for mine when we do not assert the assumption that all women are terrible players. It might be some people’s issue but for the most part is other reasoning.
      Women do bring drama, but they do not cause it. Mixed gender environments mixed with the anonymity of the internet causes problems and in the male dominated world of competitive raiding women usually get horribly harassed and given unfair treatment whether negative or positive. Again I’m sure their are exceptions, but this does happen a lot.

      It isn’t a good situation for either party and when you are a guild leader with one goal of simply wanting to clear content at a competitive level you sometimes have to make the choice of choosing what works over what’s right.

      Oddly enough it does work to prevent a lot of drama. Is it right? Not by a long shot. But it seems to work in it’s odd way. If I were a woman I would try to make a guild with similar goals and try to make it female only to prevent drama, but unfortunately I would be excluded from “No Dicks Allowed” and had to go with NCA.

      And as a last remark, our guild is primarily made up of people between the ages of 19 and 27, and yeah we probably are an old enough crew to handle female raiders, but that’s my opinion. The guild brass doesn’t agree.

      Thought some perspective would help.

  • Kadomi
    Twitter: Kadomi

    And here’s Tristan’s stance about his guild tag of No Chicks Allowed.

  • I actually think the most fascinating and thought-provoking link in Gravity’s post is the last one, about addiction to warcraft and the effect it can have on your relationships.

    I play warcraft too much. I am married to a non-gamer, with a 1 year old girl and another baby on the way. I have quite a stressful job in finance.  I raid once or twice a week, and usually play for an hour a day. I am currently in the process of cutting down my non-raid time to every other day, but it hurts because I am such a damn addict. I see people in my guild and elsewhere that are always online (it seems to me) and I worry about what impact it has on their lives and their work or studies.

    On the “no-girlz-allowed” issue, frankly it’s bollocks really. It’s because a large proportion of warcraft players are teenage boys, and teenage boys usually can’t talk to women sensibly. The laughable myth that women of themselves ”create drama” is utter nonsense. Any “drama” usually arises from poor leadership within the guild to clamp down on sexist behaviour before it becomes a problem, and immature boys thinking they can import playground chat into guild chat (“On the internet no-one knows you are twelve” “Uh, yes they do you cretinous little shit”). There are many many interesting issues to talk about concerning sexuality in gaming it is a shame that we have to talk about the drama myth all the time – why so many female healers for example and not so many tanks? It can’t be skill (healing is HARD) so perhaps women (he said, generalising madly) tend to prefer the healer role – perhaps it triggers some ancient maternal type instinct?

  • Cybac
    Twitter: WoWCrusader

    Just browsing through some of the sections on the site and i’ve posted on the shame shared topic so this caught my eye, relationships can, and do work out well in game and progress to real life. Like minded people getting together works well, the problems arise when you get a mmo player + a non mmo player combination, unless they are very strong problems tend to appear as it’s very hard to understand the pull of a time consuming game unless your in the thick of it. I moderate my time reasonably well, my missus plays and we have a baby daughter that doesnt want her parents glued to the computers all the time so its important to be aware. My brother has just moved in with his other half, and they actually met online where he was the GM and she was an officer!

    In game relationships moving to the next level are far more widespread than people think :)

    Big up to the gamer.

    Love your site, will be reading it regularly from now onward, big thumbs up dude :)

    P.S: Interface utility on top right works nicely and is wicked but it should remember your section choice from page to page, needs some kind of persistance in which tab has been selected ;)

  • Cybac
    Twitter: WoWCrusader

    Ahh okies, just read up on the code bit for the tabs your using. I’d just use the code snippet to “retrieve the index of the currently selected tab” straight after the user switched tabs, then you can pass that variable to the next page and select that tab again. If there is no variable set (because no other tab was selected then it would default to the first tab). Anyway i’m sure that i’m talking gibberish to someone who knows far more about it than I do, just found it interesting. Going to see if Joomla offers something similar i think. Good luck with it. :)
    .-= Cybac´s last blog ..Raid Leader: Too many on the bench? =-.

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