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32 commentsI hear anecdotal evidence of DK tanks being benched so that our tanking brethren do the business instead. Whilst promoting the rawr:tankDK article in official wow forums, I read a thread there asking “where did all the DK tanks go?” (being the official forums I would normally immediately disregard everything as drivel)… but remembered long-time reader Kenshi commenting he’s now 3rd tank (he’s in a progression guild).
He’d shown a picture from guildies too. They’d read the “warriors are swiss army, DKs are from lego” post and thought maybe they’d joke about it rub some salt on the wound(see comments). Here it is.
- I disagree. DKs are not the fail tank.
I don’t get why a progression guild, or anyone, would claim DK tanks are universally weaker than other tanks. All the tanks, side-by-side have been largely normalised. Our big damage-reducing cooldowns are similar, our threat is similar (paladins still win there), stamina pool is similar (except droods, but that’s intentional) and so on.
There is some pro and con to each class. The ‘how do I tank‘ survey talked about it. None of the bloggers’ surveys I read said “my class is unbalanced and weak”. EJ seems fairly agreed that we lack threat in high-end non-melee progression fights, fair enough, but that doesn’t mean we suck everywhere.
Paladins don’t have a short-cooldown interrupt nor any gap-closing talents, both of which a DK does have, and both are valuable for tanks, yet maintankadins are seen as pwnage. What deficincies does a DK have that could offset those advantages and get us benched? Threat perhaps in a small number of encounters. It’s just a silly circular argument. So why would common people think DKs are weak?
I might say, it’s because there are so many goddamn loser DKs out there who ruin the reputation of the class. But that wouldn’t apply to a guild like Kenshi’s, which is progressive and you’d expect is updated on theory.
I might say, it’s because droods have loads of HP, so the World of Pugcraft mentality of “HP = tank” might mean DKs are less attractive. But that’s wrong too, blood tanks have slightly more HP than their plate peers, and only less than bears.
Maybe, this is all I can surmise: it’s just a phase of misinformation that will pass.
…or am I missing something? Is there a movement against DK tanks I’ve just not heard about? (If so, what a bunch of retards).
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Twitter: Psynister
I would say, in all honesty, that is the number of Death Knoobs out there that people see. Even in progressive guilds you’re going to see people who pug other things during off hours or when they were too late to get into the raid, or whatever. And when they do they see the Death Knoobs. Everywhere you go the knoobs are looking for groups, offering runs, and so on.
I can truthfully say that I have never seen a single DK tank reach a performance level of “Decent” much less “Good” in any instance in Northrend. I’ve seen them do a good job in BC Raids (at level 80), and they do an excellent job in Wailing Caverns, but that’s seriously the best I’ve ever seen.
In every single instance/raid I’ve ever been to in Northrend, if a DK tanks it we fail. When I go in on my mage as Frost instead of Arcane because I know the tank will need me to pull less threat, and I steal agro from with three Frostbolts after giving him time to generate threat before I even started casting the first one, the guy sucks as a tank.
Initial thoughts are the blame the player and say the guy sucks. I ask them about their experience tanking, give advice where needed/accepted, and then give them another shot and yet they continue to fail. When it happens with multiple people you can’t help but shift your focus away from the player being the one that sucks to the class being the problem.
We chat on twitter, so you know my stance on DK’s already, but I’ll say it again here. No matter how many people tell me that their guild has a DK as their main tank, or their friend is a DK tank, or even that they are the DK tank, I have never seen the good ones. They’re apparently out there and some people do stick up for the class, but until I personally see an example of a good one then I can only judge from my own experiences. And from my experience, they are the weakest of all tanks.
It might also be that most DK’s who are trying to tank don’t know how to express their needs to the party, or that they think everyone else should already know. I used to think that Warriors sucked as tanks because they couldn’t hold threat for crap either. After someone took the time to explain the rage mechanic and how they needed me to act with them in the group then I was able to find out that they tanked just fine, though in a different manner than I was used to from having run with so many paladins.
Maybe it’s just the times. Right now AoE is the way to handle pretty well all trash and so DPS classes are used to throwing AoE’s out there right off the bat not understanding that the DK needs a little time to generate that AoE threat before you can start doing that. It’s another possibility, but I can’t say for sure.
Maybe that’s what it is, a wide-spread misunderstanding of how to deal with a DK as the tank. Do we need to give a DK more time than we give Warriors? Should AoE not be put to use until the the DK has gone through his full tanking rotation X number of times? Should we focus solely on single-target DPS regardless? That could be the key just as well as anything else; the rest of the group not knowing how to work with the tanking class and expecting them to be like something else. Having a Paladin as your tank lets everyone else go on easy mode to some extent, and that could be the core of the problem right there.
Twitter: Plaguedcandles
When I was looking for a group to Tank the Daily H the leader of a group I was asking was giving me some “trouble” with letting me Tank. The whole “Lol Dk’s can’t Tank”. So I told him to try me out, and if we wipe due to one of my problems he can boot me.
Funniest part was that he ate his words when I out DPS’d him on every boss, AND Tanked it like a pro. (2.4k on Eadric *flex*)
Plus, my guild is loving the DK Tank, before they were using a Pally and a Warrior, which are both great, don’t get me wrong. But the Death Knight/Pally Tanking combo is just great! If one mob goes off, the other Tank has it in a heart beat. To boot, my Feral Tanking friend and I are also rediculously great at Tanking together.
Although I’ll agree with @Psynister I have seen a TON of baddies when I used to play the Holy Priest as my main. The good ones are certainly harder to find in the crowd, but when you do they are REALLY good.
I guess it was just more incentive to play the DK to prove people wrong then.
Twitter: honorshammer
It could be that DKs were so fantastic when they came out that now they don’t look as great compared to what they used to be. This leads to them feeling weak, which they are compared to their previous state.
Twitter: gphreak
I’ve seen less DK tanks myself on my server after they were everywhere after launch. Several of our raids were and partly still are searching for one (for weeks now).
Why DK tanks usually suck? We play a bit differently, without our diseases on a target the threat sucks, without being hit by the target the threat sucks in high-end encounters (i.e. without Rune Strike), punching everything out as fast as possible will leave you with no runes etc. (which is bad if you try to gether several adds like the infernals of Jaraxxus). We have a 1-minute cooldown that should be used OFTEN, we have Anti-magic Shell, Death Pact – and too often I see DK tanks completly ignoring all those things. I myself tanked with a paladin before and it’s way different: one cooldown, 969 till the end of time and you make people usually happy. Of course there’s much more to a get prot paladin, don’t get me wrong. But you’re not completly awful if ignore the rest.
We got hit pretty hard over the last patches (10% health -> 6% stamina, CD increased, you know what I’m talking about). When first logging in and seeing my “updated” health pool I really considered just logging off again. And I still don’t get why that paladin over there has nearly as much HP as I have but wears a shield in addition. I’m not sure what amount of damage they currently block, but I read some pretty insane numbers from warriors (7-8k if it crits, not sure though). Combine that with Icecrown bosses hit less but more I’m a sad panda.
And last but not least: olol im so cuul im darkdarkdaeth teh bluod dk eh hehe. Idiots infest our class more often than not. Several people I know refuse to take DKs with them, even more so tanks – if they don’t know them.
TL;DR: takes a bit to play correctly, we’re the new huntards and the weakest of the tank classes in single-target threat afaik (or it’s spikey, and will get even more so in Icecrown). Not bad shape, but not good either.
Still super-fun to play, though, I’ll stay and I’m currently not getting benched. No super-uber-progress raid though, we just killed Heroic Jaraxxus (25).
I’m going to agree that the reason you’re probably seeing fewer DK tanks out there is that the ‘bad’ DK tanks from the start of Wrath are gone, and all you have left are the ones that could handle the change in DK tanking. From what I’ve seen, folks who play DK tanks now – are the same ones that tanked in BC and Vanilla. The rest just seem to DPS.
I like our Druid/Pally combo. I wouldn’t mind a DK in the group, but in a 10 man guild there are only so many spots.
Just more anecdotal evidence – I’ve been tanking as a Blood DK since the beginning of Wrath was in the main tank rotation all the way through Ulduar including the being the main Hardmode tank. Once we got to ToGC 25 things quickly changed. After Beasts on 25 I was quickly asked to DPS and have our Druid/Pally combo tank most of ToC hardmodes. The Impale/Stomp/Melee swing was causing to many instagibs. We just got our ToGC 25 Anub kill last week, and was also dps for that. The paladin is just the superior choice for adds due to fight mechanics and being able to block; since I can’t block there’s no possible way for me to take add duty. And as for Anub, the Druid tank is just easier for our healers to heal (significantly less spike, much higher HP). My gear isn’t bad by any stretch, but because the guild has favored the other 2 tanks, the other two do have a slight gear advantage over me.
I don’t consider DKs to be in a “bad” place, it’s just Paladin and Druid tanks are in a much better place. That coupled with unfriendly fight mechanics has caused me to see a lot more bench then normal. Not having a block mechanic also hurts us compared to the others. Not that I advocate getting a block mechanic, but it’s a strong reason to not use a DK when you have a paladin available. I’ve seen similar things around the server as well. To my knowledge, no progression guilds on Mannoroth(US) use a DK tank.
Threat is a whole other issue, but EJ has covered it pretty well. Single target threat is just a tad low. We have some of the best caster dps I’ve ever had the pleasure of playing with in guild, but holding aggro off a destro warlock who doesn’t pick up full threat reduction talents can be quite a challenge (and before you say “he’s bad” the top dps spec doesn’t include full points in the talent and the said warlock does not pull aggro, but he is forced to hold back on the pulls – once aggro is established, he goes nuts with the rest of the dps.)
Twitter: gravitydk
So many great comments!
@Matthew, I’ve noticed that too. I have coached a few tanks who hadn’t been using all their cooldowns, and as a consequence feel squishier (mentioned it in my survey, too). I think I’ll do a post on that one day.
@Arrin, I agree that fights with little adds you can block are better suited to our blocking brethren (Anub even has a block-tank guide on tankspot we’ve probably all seen). What I don’t understand from you comment though, is why would bear MT with Pally OT on Anub, mean that you are dps for all of the Coliseum? Why would a maintankadin survive impale/stomp/melee better than you? Surely, combining your CD with external CDs puts a DK in the same range of damage-reduction/avoidance as a pally. I remember reading on about how Splug handles the fight that way.
We use the Bear on Anub because DW Unholy dps with the T9 4p does insane dps. Our 3 DKs (myself included) all have a DW Unholy spec and pull 10-11k sustained dps on that fight and also having the Deathgrips to position the Frost Spheres is quite a bonus. There is certainly no reason why I can’t tank Anub – I actually started off on Anub but was moved to DPS on that fight specifically because of the DK dps cheese.
And the other question about a DK vs. Pally on Beasts I can sum up with 2 words: Ardent Defender. Point for point we are about even in terms of damage received and while I lack his threat, it’s still enough to hold aggro. Just tonight our Pally is out of town chasing after some Canadian fiance and I was asked to be the 2nd tank this evening. I’m happy to report no issues and no complaints for healers as well as a 1-shot on the first 4 bosses in ToGC. Too bad we are stuck until Monday when the pally returns to get our 2nd Anub kill.
So to reiterate, I don’t think that DKs are necessarily bad, there are just better options.
Edit: The reason why I usually end up as DPS for the whole instance is once we set the raid, we don’t usually rotate people unless something is wrong or someone has to go. We also don’t like to waste consumables switching back and forth. Like I said, there is no reason I can’t, it’s just easier from a raid leader standpoint to maintain consistency for both their sanity and the healers.
Twitter: gravitydk
Thanks for elaborating Arrin; yes that makes sense. Good level-headed view.
Unholy dps on fights with adds is great (Hinen has been writing a good series on it including Anub).
The problem is the encounter design in ToC. Beasts ,with their random high damage burst, favor the huge EH of Druids and Ardent Defender really is at it’s best there and warriors have anub (and to a lesser degree champions) as their “shine on boss”. The DK-Tank encounter would be Jarraxus, but any tank who can survive Gormok’s impale+melee combo has no problems surviving the fel-fireball, which is interrupable.
So which tanks do guilds take to ToGC if they want to try the 50 tries achievment? Druids and palas for beasts and a warrior for anub. The warrior does the Interrupting on Jarraxus just fine and brings greater controll to faction champions.
Tl.dr: DK tanks overall are ovrall not much worse than other tanks, they are just worse in ToC because it is missing a DK Tank niche encounter (strong timed or predictable magic burst).
And with that lies the problem: there have been many quotes from GC when they started to homogenize tanks, that they didn’t want there to be tank niches, that all tanks should be able to tank all content reasonably equally (I think he did mention about maybe some specific hard-mode encounters needing a specific one, but the general rule was that all tanks should be equal). If, as the comments here seem to indicate, the DKs are being asked to sit out for an entire tier in favour of other tanks, then maybe there is an issue with the level at which DKs operate at, a block would homogenize the classes completely though (a bad thing), so I don’t know how they could fix this without just resorting to the little, 5% buffs that we have been seeing recently.
In my view niche tanking should be a thing of the past (anyone remember the murloc pally tank for the guy in SSC?) it adds little to the game, but forces raids into certain classes, going against another core quote from GC “bring the player, not the class”.
Twitter: gravitydk
I think it’s only Anub so far where there’s an obvious argument against DKs, due to shield-block for adds. So, why wouldn’t a team of DK plus a shield-tank do the whole Coliseum?
So is the requirement for a shield-tank on Anub making people generalise to therefore the entire raid zone exclude DK? Is it generalisation that’s the problem? Twins, Faction Champs and Jaraxxus are fine for DKs, some people argue Beasts are harder for DKs but if so, they’d be harder for warriors too…
I’m deliberately being really open-minded here, and wondering what is going on in raid leaders’ minds.
Our Warrior tank is worse off then I am for being on the bench. Of the 4 classes, warriors are in my opinion the worst off. They take around the same damage and have similar EH levels to DKs, but really lack the strong cooldowns. When we were learning Beasts, after the first night, it was clear there was no way a warrior was going to work as well as the other 3 classes for that fight.
I dont feel squishier than the palas and warriors ive been tanking with(im a blood tank btw). Quite the opposite. For example, on the Coliseum(on the beasts to be more exact) if theres a tank that ends up dying its the warrior …
Popping a CD(or trinket if no CD is available) before a tank switch is invaluable and can be a life saver.
As for threat … well that depends. If im MT a boss i’ll get MD’s and Tricks of the Trade in which case theres no problem at all at the start of a fight. The issue crops up when theres me and a pala/warrior going for some trash pull.
The lack of snap aggro really shows there and unless i get a lucky crit right off the bat then i have absolutely no chance of “winning” that mob.
DK’s are being benched for sure. I am the Raid Leader for my guild, we don’t do hard modes but we have completed all the 25 man content minus hard modes. I was the MT for Tier 7,8 and started in Tier 9.
In Tier 9 that’s where things changed considerably, much lesser geared Pally’s just always take 2500 less regular melee damage from all the blocking they do, which negates any additional health we might have, it wasn’t spike damage that was killing it me it was those regular hits just being huge all the time, though I was a Blood Tank and maybe I could have reduced that a bit by going back Frost ( which I wish I did try before stepping down from MT duties ).
It just felt like our guild had a much better shot at progressing with the Pally tanks taking over. ( we were a DK/Bear Team through all the rest of the content ) From me being on my back like never before while the undergeared tanks just kept trucking on.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/XP9NvUdTS84agS6G/details/0/
Drackor was entry level Ulduar gear, I was in a few pieces of 25 man ToC gear. I am taking 8k melee swings from twins constantly, almost 90% of his melee swings are 6k.
Twitter: gravitydk
To chorus Sputniq’s point: I remember looking at shield-tanks vs DKs for 5-mans when the question of DKs being squishy came up, couldn’t find enough conclusive data at the time. Some shield-tanks gave me their stats, and Honors too (2k block, 13.6% of the time, plus ~55% avoidance including to-miss).
There must be something in this.
I also dont think its just DK’s but we are back to a “tank shortage”, the devs even admitted that. People just dont wanna go thru the grind of leveling a tank, even if it is from 55 for DK’s. DK’s have almost become what people roll to play on a different server than their mains, but they sure dont want to tank the content on their new server.
I hope it is just a cycle, remember when DK’s first came out then there was a huge Healer shortage.