The armour versus stamina epic thread on maintankadin is an entertaining read. Other than being a good analysis of Total Effective Health, and its applicability to decisions between armour and stamina trinkets, it has a fascinating set of exchanges with a few belligerent posters who pretend to be honest debaters but are actually manipulative.
After a dummy-spit from Eminai (who had some good ideas but was unable to control his vitriol), here’s Theck’s rebuttal, below from p11. It outlines why Theck’s a theorycrafter to respect, beyond just his maths, but for his humility and level-headedness. I’ve said before, one thing I respect in him is the ability to admit he’s wrong and change his mind, which is a crucial quality of intelligence that I didn’t see in Eminai.
I put Theck in blue.
Eminai wrote:If you can’t see how adding healing done into a formula that assumes you receive invalidates everything about that formula, I shudder to think of what kind of aneurysm inducing “math” I would find in your actual theorycrafting.
I haven’t done this, which is abundantly clear from the examples I’ve given. It is you whom is misunderstanding things. Nobody is trying to redefine Effective Health.
Eminai wrote:In case you’re wondering why people like James troll these forums, look back over the past few pages of this thread. In these few hours, I’ve repeated myself, my data, and basic common sense so often I feel like I’ve tried to chisel it into granite using nothing more than my bare hands. All you have offered is contradictory statements, fallacies, and basically worthless information that appears to serve no higher purpose than to make it appear that you are taking an active part in this discussion.
You have repeated yourself for sure. But you haven’t provided any data that supports your point. You haven’t shown me a single parse, or a single real example that shows a tank dying due to sustained DTPS over 15 or more seconds. You’ve just repeated your baseless assumption, without proof, and then tried to call me names and twist my words to make it seem like I’m committing logical fallacies. Most of which is transparent to even a casual reader.
I, on the other hand, have provided clear derivations, simple explanations, and combat log parses that support my point. Real, in-game examples that show increasing effective health by only a few hundred stamina would have saved a tank’s life and potentially turned a wipe into a kill. There is nothing in that that contradicts my point.
Eminai wrote:Any person who had two brain cells to rub together has long since taken away every useful idea presented in here, and all we are left with is me, in my stubbornness, trying to teach calculus to a stone. So I am done trying to provide any sort of basis for my points, because you will accept no basis at all. You have defended EH theory with a fanatacism that approaches religious,
I would expect a zealot to repeat the same point over and over, without providing any first-hand evidence to support that viewpoint. I would expect them to gloss over the gritty details that might show the holes in their reasoning. I would not expect a zealot to provide first-hand data that supports his point, just in case it got turned against him. And when presented with evidence that they have made incorrect statements, I would expect a zealot to respond with denial and hostility.
Looking back over the posts in this thread since last night, including the one I’m quoting right now, those statements about zealotry seem to describe your contributions to this thread much more accurately than they describe mine.
I have provided both theoretical and empirical evidence of my viewpoint. I have conceded that under certain conditions, your “belief” in the power of armor is well founded. I have gone pretty far out of my way to point out that you and I are simply talking about different models of tank damage and death, and that if yours turned out to be more likely I’d recant and share your views. And I’ve been pretty clear about the fact that I think James is an excellent player and a good tank. That doesn’t seem like zealotry to me.
Eminai wrote:and I have finally realized, albeit a fair bit later than one would expect, that you will accept no reason, no logic, no data that contradicts your holy ideas of tanking theory. Good day, sir, and may God have more mercy on your soul than you have had on my faith in humanity.
Nice try, but Billy Madison did it much better.
I don’t know what class you play Eminai. You and James are probably both very talented tanks. But from the vitriol you’re throwing into these threads, you come across as really shitty human beings.
The thread gets really interesting again when Hamlet, a fellow scientist like Theck, joins the debate on p12. It’s just a great read and full of win. Sadly, Hamlet starts off on a belligerent note, unnecessarily but does redeem himself quickly with good analysis.
Fascinating thread, particularly if you look at the meta and the structure of conversation, the failures of reasoning and the hilarious Klingon analogy near the end. To me, it shows the generally high quality of writers at maintankadin.