Sad elitism and my own disclaimer

TheLordPsy pointed out this side-conversation on the EJ benefactors’ bar “BB”, which is talking about the maintankadin epic thread. It’s here inside the ‘stupid thread’ with over 2000 pages on other topics.

Not discussing positively like “oh if you guys want to help some fellow theorycrafters out, drop by maintankadin and see if you can help them understand how they’ve got myopic about EH”. No.

It’s condescending and very elitist; looking down on people who are doing their best, have good intentions, but perhaps have not got the same breadth of understanding as the said elite. Perhaps this is just the EJ culture, of which I was unaware, whilst I’m a paid sponsor, and read Suno’s, rawrTank and Kahorie’s threads, I don’t tend to go much further since their post lengths drive me nuts.

I think people who have a superior understanding of a topic have some obligation to share that knowledge with others. I find it offensive that a knowledgeable person would take an elitist attitude towards a community (maintankadin in this case) where there is a genuine effort to further knowledge and an obvious preference for fact and hypothesis, and yet look down on its constituents as a bunch of morons.

JamesV and Emerai are both active in the BB. I was pleased to see Hamlet with a level-head both in EJ BB and maintankadin (albeit he did start off in the epic thread with an aggressive attack) and being sensible. James however says things like “Because it’s a forum full of retards that use the Corroded Skeleton Key”.

Then a good point is made about how people think in general, but it becomes a characterisation of the whole community, which is an act of prejudice.

Mex said, “This is a big problem with those forums. You read through some of Theck’s threads, and there’s really good stuff in there, it’s just interspersed with people rocking up and saying “Woah I can’t understand any of that, but thanks for all the good work Theck, keep it up!” It’s like, the more [ code ] tags in your post, the more correct you are. This then leads to people doing stuff like completely ignoring anybody who doesn’t put maths in their posts, even when it’s not relevant.

There’s a very, very significant difference between accurately calculating EH, and properly applying that information. This is what people mean when they talk about real world data and experiences — not that their experience invalidates the math, but simply that their experience shows them when and how to best apply that math.”

Birdemani quips later on, about the maintankadin guys, “Does it matter? They will dismiss proof.”

Too many of the EJ posters were taking a high ground, as if they were the Keepers of Knowledge or held similar unique powers. Seriously, what the hell is the point of that? All good tanks want to do better and all good theorycrafters will listen to constructive input. A good scientist too will reconsider his point of view, and should not be so wed to his theories to dismiss contrary data. Of course the EJ antagonists visiting maintankadin deliberately threw dust up and noise along with their valid points, which naturally leads to a defensive response, then say “oh look, those stupid paladins aren’t listening to us!” as if they were innocent actors. They baited, there was not a genuine attempt to share knowledge; it was spiteful.

The inflated egos are compensating factors for something missing, I’d say.

The scorn of good people who are making honest and skilful attempts to further the theory of tanking is an immature behaviour analogous to a workplace bully who belittles newcomers.

I do wonder if silently the aggressors wanted to help out, but didn’t want to show weakness to their peers, so did it with the guise of showmanship.

For fuck sake, this whole thing is an abstraction anyhow. We’re talking about a game we all love, and because I and others are geeks we enjoy the theorycraft and mechanics of that game; there is no place for acting like an asshole to flex your theory muscles.


I make mistakes.

I correct them when I know I have. I take on input from people and check it out, in case I was wrong.

I don’t know of many other bloggers who edit old posts as judiciously as I do to correct old errors. I do that. I will put in comments like “this applies to 3.22, for 3.3 see xyz thread”.

I don’t always wrap caveats around my posts, like in the 2h Frost spec page, I could say “if you have lower expertise and a lower iLevel 2H weapon, then the tps absolutes from this post will not stand true for you, and you should consider unholy instead”. I don’t do that because putting small print around everything is a pain in the ass. I’m presuming a level of interpretation from my readers.

When I write for new tanks, who cannot interpret as well, I really do my best to lay it all out, including caveats.

For min/max optimisation posts, I’m generally assuming you’re smart enough to question what I’ve written, to have some background on the basis of my findings, without me spoon feeding.

I have the insight generally to state when something is an opinion, or a ‘fact’ in terms of something I have tested as best I can. If it’s a conjecture, you’ll see that I say so, as opposed to being an observation which I’ve seen verified in some form. If I don’t do that, I hope readers will be aware of the possibility that my view has some question hanging over it.

So, if anyone is writing about me, in a closed forum for members only (like BB is), and saying “Gravity is a tard, look at his generalisations” or whatever, then I have this to say: fuck you.

Alternatively, to those who come here to let me know of any error: thank you.

Thanks for the link, Psy and my thanks and greetings to the good people of WoW. I had nearly 300K page views in January alone, my biggest month yet with that surprisingly high traffic, hopefully because I’m doing my best and people appreciate it.

I don’t want to spread misinformation, do my best to avoid that, and will continue to do my part to help in your tanking endeavours.

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26 comments to Sad elitism and my own disclaimer

  • Ténacity
    Twitter: xxiceman720xx

    Gravity, Gravity, Gravity…

    Don’t let those chumps at EJ (BB) Maintankadin get to you. You are not a “tard”, I’d like to see any one of those guys in the forum contribute half as much to the tanking community. All the “generalizations” I have seen you make are perfect for the majority of readers; I know when I notice a generalization that I think I need more information on comes up I ask for more clarification- its not hard and you are always there within hours to respond in comments to questions and concerns- UNLIKE EJ where you get flamed for questioning a mechanic.

    I read the entire EH thread on Maintankadin, all 23 pages (at the time). I can say I honestly get more out of one of your spread sheets and a short explaination than I did out of that damned cursed thread! Who’s opinion do you trust? I saw some nifty formulas, but no one seemed to take the time to break it down (as I’m sure you would), and that’s my point.

    I’ve been MT for my guild for going on 2 years now and it is hard to find a solid dk thread that is updated as often as, skeletonjack, are gone… I see you as Batman, the super hero that doesnt get credit for all the good that he does, and the good guys come crying to you when they need help, and all other times ignore you like a dirty rag.


  • Fearim

    Adding that I have found your blog informative, interesting and well written.

    Have played WoW on and off since midnight when the game started, had never played a DK tank to about 5 months ago and I had never bothered to look at any theory around them either.

    In the last month or two, i’ve searched around for whatever information i can find to become a better tank and i would say thanks to the information here my tanking has improved 10 fold (i’m now main tanking our 10 mans and we are about to start ICC 10 soon). The information elsewhere i find unhelpful and slightly unorganised, though tankspot does have some good videos of course.

    Quite far away from anything i would consider ‘tardish’ Gravity, keep up the good work mate.

    Fearim (Saurfang)

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    Thanks Tenacity and Fearim, although I do think the analogy to batman is stretching your compliments a bit far. (As aside, my favourite comics were Conan, Silver Surfer, Batman, Sandman, the Phantom [originals], and a few others I don’t recall anymore).
    Please remember this was a rant post and not me fishing for love, so whilst it is great to hear I’m helping as intended, you don’t need to make me feel any better about doing it; I’ll keep going regardless of any injustices by intellectuals.

  • Ténacity
    Twitter: xxiceman720xx

    If you can truly call those with loose tongues intellectuals, then I suppose any old fool can be intellectual these days…

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    Yeah, fair point. I don’t think that was a good term to use. ;)

  • JamesVZ

    Hey look, I’m famous.  You sit here and wonder why I have such massive nuts, and then make blogs like this.  Keep fueling the e-peen, gents.

  • Mex

    You all need to understand a few things about EJ and its posters.
    It’s not a help forum, or a repository for guides. It’s a discussion forum, and it’s intended to be a place where people who already know almost everything about their class can discuss and refine the finer points of the theories that govern that class. Some posters are kind enough to create large, detailed, and up-to-date guides on mechanics, rotations, stats, and just generally “how2play”. That’s something that they do in their own free time, and most people are grateful for it.
    Here, Bart says it better than I ever could —
    I’ve been a member of both EJs and MT for several years now, and while I love both communities, I recognise that they are very different places, with very different goals and different ways of achieving those goals. There is nothing wrong with this, but it needs to be stressed that EJ’s ability to effectively provide a place for the discussion and formulation of theory necessitates heavy-handed moderation.
    For what it’s worth, I believe this site was actually mentioned somewhere on EJs lately as a very positive example of someone formulating a DK community that didn’t instantly degenerate into a pack of drooling morons.
    Oh, and finally, once you get past his gruff exterior, James has a heart of gold.

    • Gravity
      Twitter: gravitydk

      That’s a good perspective actually, thank you. I actually do appreciate the effort made. Also, James still gets points for the Klingon analogy. :)

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