Saronite grenades

I didn’t know they are instant cast (were is more precise; Blizzard removed them for the moment) and are used in a normal high-end rogue rotation. That’s a pretty cool way to get more dps. I wonder if they generate personal threat and could be used by tanks.

MMO Champion’s commentary is particularly good, showing that the grenades truly are a normal part of how their rogue did his job.

The question is whether it was obvious to Ensidia that something was askew. This encounter was not on the PTR, so they wouldn’t have known what it was supposed to be like. They didn’t have a comparison. Sure, these platforms rebuilding might appear like an unintended mechanic, but when you only have limited attempts and have never seen it before… perhaps it looked like a deliberate encounter feature. They would have had no idea the grenades were causing it.

However, that’s the question: is there something we don’t know, that Blizzard do, about Ensidia having some way to know without any doubt they were exploiting the encounter. I think they are innocent, very clever cheats, and I’m curious to see how it pans out.

Update: the logic is too compelling, they knew it was an exploit. Also see Psy’s comments below on the access world top guilds have to Blizzard.

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11 comments to Saronite grenades

  • Stop
    Twitter: stoppableforce

    I would be more inclined to believe them entirely innocent were it not for the fact that Ensidia had earlier beaten the same encounter in 10-man, where the bug didn’t exist. Muqq’s activity list, at least until Muqq is deleted, is a good place to see this: yesterday at 2PM Tarren Mill-EU time: Muqq defeats the Lich King in 10-man; twenty-two hours ago: Muqq defeats the Lich King in 25-man.

    Unless the entire floor breakage part of the fight just doesn’t exist on 10-man, I believe they realized there was a bug. Of course, Kungen’s blog states that they noted the bug, but didn’t know what was causing it because it didn’t happen each time. Ekyu’s post is another good example: he’s very in-depth about the fight, and he admits they knew that the bug was occurring, but not why.

    My two cents: On Ensidia’s end, they probably should have reported this bug to the GMs when they noticed it. At the very least, that’s plausible deniability right there. (Kungen notes that they have “proof in their news” but let’s face it – we all know blog posts can be re-dated to appear to have been posted whenever the author likes.) On Blizzard’s end, this is a bit of an overreaction, especially since it’s obvious from WoL parse screenshots all over the web that Ensidia doesn’t appear to have been deliberately employing this exploit.

    I’d ideally like to see Ensidia’s titles and loot returned to them, even if their world first does have an asterisk beside it now in everyone’s books.

  • quixilva

    Well it looks like those involved in the kill have had their accounts banned for 72 hours and credit for the kill stripped.I’m inclined to think that they knew that the platforms shouldn’t be rebuilding. After all they’d cleared the 10 man where it wasn’t happening, although I’m guessing that they didn’t know why.

    Blizzard really had no option but to strip credit for the kill, given that it unlocks hard modes. I’m a little bit surprised at the ban however.Given that Blizzard have stated that they were monitoring LK attempts, it seems a bit odd that it unfolded this way. I wonder if they said they were going to strip credit for the kill, but Ensidia decided to publish it anyway, resulting in the ban.

  • I don’t buy the whole shuffle Ensidia’s giving us. They’re acting the exact same as Exodus did when they exploited Alone in the Darkness.

    If you look at their ten man kill, they blacked out the chat log. When asked to produce a fraps to show weather or not they were throwing bombs at the edge of the platform in phase three, Tuns showed up on MMO-Champion and said that they do not have a video, because they didn’t fraps it, and that they didn’t fraps any of their world first kills. Not KT, not Yogg, etc. This is ludicrous, not only because a guild of their calibur always has someone frapsing, it’s also an outright lie, because the fraps of their World First Yogg easy mode kill is sitting on Youtube as we speak.

    They weren’t forthcoming about the exploit until after it was already announced and hotfixed, and they claimed that it did not significantly impact the difficulty of the fight. This is another blatant lie. The difficulty in phase three lies in the waves of Valkyr that spawn, grab a player, and if not quickly burned down, throws their victim off the edge of the platform and to their deaths. By rebuilding the platform, the Valkyrs now throw their victims safely onto the outer rim, which should not exist at this point. This means that a phase that was built around rapidly DPSing down multiple adds becomes a mindless burn phase on the boss. This is EXACTLY what Exodus did to cheese the third phase of Yogg.

    Ensidia cannot claim ignorance of these mechanics, because they had already downed the fight on ten man, and had access to Blood Legion’s ten man kill vid. Ensidia’s mage class lead, in a recent blog post, admitted that they knew that the platform was not supposed to rebuild itself. Given Ensidia’s track record of exploiting fights like Twin Emps, C’thun, Vashj, Hodir, and Mimiron to get their first kills, I find it very difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt.

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    That’s a good research, Stop. I wonder if the 10-man version even has the same mechanic with platforms, or not. Do you know? Certainly they knew “a bug” was occurring, but with the several-hour long times to raise tickets… do they wait for GM or presume they’re not causing it themselves and continue raiding?

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    Also good input TRM, you two have swayed me with facts. They’re cheats!

  • Uru

    speaking of saronite bombs : my warrior tank alt is engineer, and i always used them in aoe situations.honestly i don’t know if the damage they do is enhanced by the threat modifier of prot stance (or frost presence, for dks), but for sure they still give a good chunk of aggro.on top of this, the warrior class pairs very nicely with engineering bombs, since warriors have only few aoe abilities ,and with rather long cooldowns (tclap+shockwave while tanking, whirlwind in dps)..having another fire&forget “cd” that does 1500damage average in a very huge radius if you know that some new add is coming just..makes me happy each time ;) engineering in wotlk is win-win, no doubts. ;)

  • Christopher S. Penn
    Twitter: cspenn

    I use Saronite Bombs ALL the time in pulls, especially in 5 mans. They generate a decent amount of threat, enough to counteract basic healer threat. You know that antechamber with the two large packs of mobs in HoS before Maiden of Grief? I D&D left side, Saronite Bomb right side, and no one gets eaten.

  • Do remember as well that Blizzard has access to all of the chat logs when they were doing the encounter.  All it would take is one person to say “guys, isn’t this an exploit?” or “I think the bombs are making the platform re-build”.  If they continue to use the technique once that became part of the official record, they cross the line from innocent triggering of a bug becomes blatant exploiting.

  • Psy
    Twitter: thelordpsy

    There is no possible way you can do the encounter, see the platform fix itself, and believe that everything is working fine.  That literally trivializes one of the only difficult aspects of the fight.  *trivializes*

    If you haven’t seen the fight, you can’t even comprehend how bad it is.  Imagine if Saurfang just stopped generating RP at 50.  Imagine if Festergut forgot to inhale blight and never got a damage increase.  Imagine if Rotface just stopped tossing out oozes.

    I don’t care how easy they say the phase is, I don’t care how they say they could have done it anyway, none of that is even remotely important.  What matters is that they did the fight with one entire mechanic missing and they knew that the mechanic was missing and they didn’t say a god damn word to anyone until it was over and done.  Doesn’t matter if they know what caused it or not, doesn’t matter if they tried to break the encounter or not, they consciously exploited and they got what they deserved.

    To be fair, if I was Blizzard, I would have reset them to N-many attempts (10?), cleared their achievement/kill/whatever information, and said have at it.  That would have been more fair all around.  But the hand of Blizzard has made their stance clear, and so it shall be.

    I’m within my rights to say that members of extremely high end guilds have access to the developers that the average community does not. I guarantee you that when we attempt bosses, people are watching us. I guarantee you that if we discovered a bug, we could get information on its severity, inention, and status in under one day; Premonition has done this before when we encountered bugs in Yogg-Saron [Before my time] and in ToC25 when we weren’t sure whether stacking block would be considered exploitative.

  • Gravity
    Twitter: gravitydk

    Vene just twittered this post on MMO-C allegedly from an Ensidia member.

    @psy, indeed I haven’t seen the fight video (deliberately) so wasn’t til I’d read the significance of its mechanics that I appreciated the deceptiveness of Ensidia saying its trivial.

    To others who don’t know, Psy is in Premonition.

  • I found something real interesting.

    The whole crux of the issue is the interaction between the constructs of the platform, and their vulnerability to siege damage. There are several events in recent raids that made use of health constructs. The first was Malygos, the second was Flame Leviathan. The most recent was when the Lich King destroys the floor in ToC.

    One of the key points of the Ensidia argument was that they had no way of knowing it was the Saronite Grenades that were tweaking with the constructs. A friend of mine then pointed me to this blog post by Mek. They, in a strictly whimsical mood, used Saronite Grenades to destroy the floor in ToC before the Lich King could while testing the 3.2 PTR. They did this seven times, to make sure it was the grenades that were doing it.

    Now people have no ground to stand on when they claim that Ensidia couldn’t have known about the interaction of siege damage and constructed terrain.

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