Ghostcrawler on Vengeance, update

Ghostcrawler has given some more detail on why we have Vengeance. He used a Q&A format in the normal forums (not beta).

Imagine the tooltip for Vengeance read “Your damage scales with the rest of your raid as if you wore dps gear instead of tanking gear.” That’s pretty much it.

Q: Why not just make it +threat?
A: Tanks tell us *constantly* that damage is fun and threat without damage is not fun. Devastate is a much more fun button than Sunder Armor.

Q: Why make me have to worry about threat?
A: Because it’s part of your job. A fight where there is no real danger of losing threat means half those buttons on your bar don’t do much.

Q: Why not make tanks wear dps gear?
A: A few reasons. The big one is that tanks care about survival so they want to gear for survival. The bear solution works okay, but I suspect if they had the choice, the druids would rather see us itemize bear leather (if we could solve all the skewed distribution problems that led us to the current goal in the first place).

Now, it would be awesome if tanks did consider dps stats more seriously, and maybe outside of the instagib environment of Lich King, they will. Back in the day, tanks at least have say swords and rings for +threat fights even if they didn’t use them all the time.

Q: Why does Vengeance needs to fall off at all?
A: Because we want you to care about actually hitting your buttons. You should be good at threat because you know when to use a Shield Slam for burst threat, not because of a nearly-passive aura that makes stuff stick to you like glue. If we wanted Vengeance to solve every problem of tanking, we would just make Defensive Stance et al. give you a 1000% threat modifier such that you’d never have problems.

Q: But if Vengeance falls off, we’ll wipe.
A: That’s not the intent. You have Shield Slam and similar abilities. You have a lot of threat generating tools. Heck, you have Taunt much of the time.

Q: What is the role of Vengeance in PvP?
A: Hopefully irrelevant. If making it dispellable isn’t sufficient, we’ll simply turn it off.

Q: Why can’t tanks do competitive damage in PvP?
A: Because they chose the tank role instead of the dps role. Tanking comes with enormous advantages that are helpful in PvP, such as being hard to kill, hard to control and having good control of your own. That will be even more useful in the Rated BGs of Cataclysm.

Q: [I don't like that design. I prefer a different design.]
A: Feedback like that is useful to a point, but understand that your feedback will be more valuable if it does align with our goals. Saying “I think tanks should do the same damage as dps specs,” is fine feedback, but it’s something we’re unlikely to change.

Yes, Vengeance can be dispelled.

I’m still a little concerned about avoidance, but GC is not even though it was in his face; so I guess he’s happy with that.

Join in here or the vengeance thread in our forums.

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3 comments to Ghostcrawler on Vengeance, update

  • “Tanking comes with enormous advantages that are helpful in PvP, such as being hard to kill, hard to control and having good control of your own. That will be even more useful in the Rated BGs of Cataclysm.”
     
    No! Hard to kill, yes. Hard to control and have good control of our own, no way!
     
    Other than that, guess this gives some clarification even though most of what he said has already been said earlier.

    • Gravity
      Twitter: gravitydk

      For me, the main point here is him effectively saying “I know it doesn’t scale with avoidance, we’ve thought about those factors”, which is reassuring.

  • Satorri

    Personally, I enjoyed:
    Q: [I don't like that design. I prefer a different design.]
    A: Feedback like that is useful to a point, but understand that your feedback will be more valuable if it does align with our goals. Saying “I think tanks should do the same damage as dps specs,” is fine feedback, but it’s something we’re unlikely to change.”
    I think a lot of the more vocal, theory-oriented players forget this. Like the inevitable, “Let’s have Shockwave apply Rend, and Tclap shoot streamers into the air which turn into defensive walls.” =)

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