Death Knight Cataclysm (85) Tanking Guide

The facts on DK tanking. Padawan tanks are welcome. Includes cookie-cutter specs.

Death Knight Cataclysm (85) Tanking Guide

Postby Insolence » 13 Oct 2010, 22:25

Correct for 4.0.3a, not updated for 4.0.6. Bear in mind the changes such as blood fever providing the tank debuff, instead of blood boil.


Death Knight Cataclysm (85) Tanking Guide


Table of Contents
Cataclysm introduces a fresh and newly re-vamped Rune System for Death Knights. Instead of each Rune being on an independent Cooldown, one Rune must wait for the other of it's kind to end it's cooldown before it begins it's own cooldown. For Example:
Blood Rune #1 - Blood Rune #2 - Frost Rune #1 - Frost Rune #2 - Unholy Rune #1 - Unholy Rune #2
You currently have no Runes on cooldown.
0.0 - Heart Strike
1.5 - Heart Strike
3.0 - Death Strike
4.5 - Death Strike

Now you have:
Blood Rune #1 on an active cooldown - Blood Rune #2 is considered fully-depleted and it's cooldown doesn't start until Blood Rune #1 is off cooldown. The same applies to your Frost and Unholy Runes: Frost Rune #1 and Unholy Rune #1 are regenerating while Frost Rune #2 and Unholy Rune #2 are on "standby" and are considered fully-depleted Runes. This sounds awfully complicated at first and it'll take some getting used to if you came from playing WotLK's fast-paced Death Knight but you'll get used to it.
Can different types of Runes (Blood, Frost, Unholy) re-fresh at the same time? Yes, you can have up to 1 type of each Rune refreshing at the same time for a maximum of 3 different kinds. This does not include Death Runes. Keep reading.

Death Runes work in much the same way. This is how these Runes work: Each Death Rune counts as a normal version of it's Rune. What this means is that you can have 1 "Blood Death Rune," 1 "Frost Death Rune" and 1 "Unholy Death Rune" recharging together at the same time the same way you can have 1 normal Blood, Frost and Unholy Runes recharging together. You cannot however have 1 Death Rune and 1 normal Rune of the same type recharging together. So for example:
You use Icy Touch, Plague Strike and then Death Strike.
Frost Rune #1 (used on Icy Touch) is re-charging.
Unholy Rune #1 (used on Plague Strike) is re-charging.
Frost Rune #2 and Unholy Rune #2 (used on Death Strike) have been converted to Death Runes. They will not recharge until Frost Rune #1 and Unholy Rune #1 are ready. Same rule applies if you Death Strike twice together, the second set of Frost and Unholy Runes will not recharge until the first set is ready. Blood Runes converted to Death Runes by Blood Tap are also subject to this rule.

What happens when my ability misses? Nothing. You lose a GCD and the Runes used by the ability are simply refreshed without going on cooldown.

As Tanks we don't have the benefit of large amounts of Haste on our Gear to increase Rune Regeneration speed, however we do have Improved Blood Presence which reduces Rune Cooldowns from 10 seconds to 8 seconds.

Now I'll introduce you to an important and major addition to go along with this new Rune System: Runic Empowerment. Just as the Tooltip states, it can only grant you fully-depleted Runes. What does this mean? Simple. It can grant you any Rune that is not currently on an active cooldown. To use the same example from above here, Blood Rune #2, Frost Rune #2, and Unholy Rune #2 were all waiting on their #1 counterparts to finish their respective cooldowns. Runic Empowerment will only ever grant you these Runes. Runes that are not currently actively recharging, whatever Rune that may be. This ability may look great however it does have it's downsides. More on this later.

Runic Power is generated when you use an ability that requires one or more Runes. It can also be generated by some Talents, more on that later.
Single-Rune Abilities generate 10 Runic Power.
Dual-Rune Abilities generate 20 Runic Power.
Triple-Rune Abilities generate 30 Runic Power.
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Many Death Knight talents have been modified, removed, or even re-vamped. The way we use and gain talent points has also changed. You now must choose a Specialization, a "Main Tree" and before being able to apply points anywhere else you need to apply at least 31 talent points to your "Main Tree." Choosing a Specialization unlocks that tree and grants you passive Bonuses from it. At level 80 you now have a total of 36 talent points to spend. Usually you choose your Talent Specialization at level 10. In the case of Death Knights however we start off at level 55 so this is not possible, so instead we choose ours when we gain our first talent point. If you are still fairly confused I suggest you take some time to read this at some point.

The biggest change to Death Knights applied now is that Blood is our one and only Tanking tree. In a way this complicates things, and in a way it simplifies them. The first thing you need to know is that you will always be taking Blood Specialization as a Death Knight Tank. Now, on to what bonuses Blood Specialization grants you:

This is the basic Build, you'll want to work off of this, always. Scarlet Fever is not mandatory, more below. Now, there's a number of Talents you can choose to drop, take, and ignore all together. You'll see mention of "Disease-less" a bit, that's explained later down.
Let's take a roll through them:

Blood


Both Frost and Unholy are viable Sub-Speccing options, here are the Talent choices:

Frost
Gains: Lichborne (more below), free Interrupts. Losses: 5 points wasted in Tier 1.


Unholy
Gains: Additional AoE Threat, longer Diseases, shorter Death Grip cooldown. Losses: Minor healing from Lichborne.

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The Glyph System in general has seen a major re-work with the addition of "Prime Glyphs," and all Glyphs becoming permanently engraved into your Glyph Spellbook once you learn them once. The only way to remove a Glyph is by removing it with Dust of Disappearance (you're no longer using Vanishing Powder). You'll want to keep a stack around since you'll find yourself constantly switching Glyphs based on what situation you're in. As always there are some Glyphs that are made for Tanks and some that are designed for Dps.
Prime Glyphs:

Major Glyphs:

Minor Glyphs:

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Due to Runic Empowerment and the change to Rune Strike, Death Knight Tanks no longer have a fixed Rotation, instead we have a Priority System. One thing to keep in mind: Rune Strike is now on the global cooldown, so your macros will be obsolete and cannot be repaired. You'll have to learn to press it.

Also, the effects of Frost Presence and Blood Presence have been switched now that Blood is the Tanking Tree. Blood is now the Tanking Presence, and the Presence you'll always want to be in. Following the 11/24 Hotfix change, Blood Presence only provides you with 30% additional Armor, not 60% anymore.

Single-Target:

AoE:


How you'll treat Runic Empowerment Runes:
Blood Runes - Heart Strike or Blood Boil depending on the situation.
Frost Runes - Unless you need to re-fresh Frost Fever wait for an Unholy Rune to pair it with for a Death Strike.
Unholy Runes - Same deal, unless you need to re-fresh Blood Plague, re-apply Death and Decay or re-fresh Bone Shield, wait for a Frost Rune to pair it with for a Death Strike.
Same applies regardless of if you're playing disease/less.

You can also use Blood Tap with a lone Frost or Unholy Rune to get an extra Death Strike.

What is Disease-less Blood?
Disease-less Blood is a play style where you do not apply diseases through Icy Touch and Plague Strike. You don't use either of them at all unless you find yourself needing the -20% attack speed debuff from Frost Fever applied through Icy Touch. If you have someone else that can bring the -20% attack speed debuff provided by Frost Fever (such as another Death Knight, Protection Paladin, Feral Druid, or a Warrior) this is a highly recommended play style. It brings in some extra Death Strikes for a minimal amount of Threat loss. The only abilities that lose to this are Heart Strike and Blood Boil. Heart Strike still gains damage depending on how many diseases you have on the target and Blood Boil gains damage if you have 1 disease on the target. The loss for Heart Strike is rather minor and if you need the extra AoE Threat you can always use just Icy Touch.

This play-style continues to be viable at 85. It does NOT mean in any way that you shouldn't use Outbreak however. Seeing as Outbreak has no Rune cost, there is absolutely NO reason not to use it. Just use it. Keep it on cooldown, its free Threat.
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Mastery is something entirely new, you get a different Mastery depending on what Specialization you choose. In the case of Blood Tanks, we get Blood Shield. Blood Shield is our own version of the Discipline Priest's Absorb Shield. You apply it to yourself through Death Strike and it lasts 10 seconds, or until it absorbs damage equal to 50% of what Death Strike healed you for, and can be strengthened to absorb even more with Mastery.

Death Strike has received a new Healing Mechanic to go along with this: It will now heal you for 20% (reduced from 25% with the 11/24 Hotfix change) of the total damage you took in the last 5 seconds, for a minimum of 7%. This mechanic makes Death Strike great for situations with abiliites such as Soul Reaper (from the Lich King encounter in Icecrown Citadel) where you take a very large amount of damage. The Blood Shield you'd generate after that would be immensely strong. You'll want to watch out so when you take large amounts of damage in a short period of damage you'll have a Death Strike to use to bomb your Blood Shield.

My suggestion is unless you know you're about to take a large amount of damage (through a boss ability or whatnot) spread your Death Strikes out. It has a 5 second healing rule now, so instead of whacking two Death Strikes together spread them out, maybe one every 5 seconds or so to keep Blood Shield up for as much as possible.

Does Mastery have a cap?
There is currently no known cap on Mastery which therefore leads me to believe that there is not a cap currently implemented onto Mastery.
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Vengeance is a new mechanic given to all Tanks as one of their talent tree specialization bonuses. It takes 5% of incoming damage from each individual hit and turns it into attack power. In a long-duration encounter this will basically ensure you as a tank pull your weight on the meters (just a bit). It has a slight decay factor to it but nothing much to worry about, you can still stack it up pretty easily, of course only up to 10% of your total Health however.

Duration? This is a question that I've seen a lot. Vengeance has no fixed "duration." It'll just show up as a buff whenever you take any damage. Vengeance currently loses 10% of its value every second when you are not being attacked, and 5% a second if you are being attacked (even if you avoid or absorb the damage). Obviously if you take damage then Vengeance won’t fall off at all. The design of this ability isn't made with Heroics in mind, it'll really pull its weight in Raids, where its made for.

Here's an example of how a 100 Attack Power Vengeance decays:
100 - 95 - 90 - 85 - 80 - 75 - 70 - 65 - 60 - 55 - 50 - 45 - 40 - 35 - 30 - 25 - 20 - 15 - 10 - 5 - 0.

Vengeance also makes Stamina even more welcome than it has been till now, both on Gear and on Gems.
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Horde:

Alliance:

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For Pre-Raid/Heroic Raid Gearing see here and here.
Raid BiS Work-In-Progress as more Gear comes up. You'll want to be aiming to have the whole set for it to be BiS, on a piece-per-piece basis there's too much difference in each person's Stats.
Click here to be taken to the BiS List's Thread.
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Relics are also known as Sigils for Death Knights. The same way as a Gun will give a Warrior some minor Stats, so do Sigils now. All Relics have Prismatic Slots, meaning they're not Color-Bound like other ones, as a result of this, they have no Socket Bonus. Here's a list of them:

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Stamina: Has a new Formula. 1 Stamina = 14 Health, compared to WotLK this is a 40% boost, which is most welcome in eliminating burst-damage. You gain +9% from Blood Specialization and another 8% from Blood Presence. There is no "cap" on Stamina, although there is discussion on a Soft-Cap, nothing solid however.

Expertise: 14% or 56 expertise needed for the parry cap against bosses (almost impossible to obtain) - You gain 6 expertise from Blood Specialization and it shows in the character screen. 26 is the minimum requirement not to have any problems during Raids.

Hit Rating: 8% is the hit cap for 2H attacks and sepcials. You do NOT need to be hit capped for Tanking. Keep in mind however that the higher hit cap the less chance to miss, so the less GCDs are wasted on missed Death Strikes, among other abilities.

Spell hit cap is at 17% -1% from Heroic Presence if you are a Draenei (Note this is no longer a Group-Wide Buff so you need to be a Draenei to have this buff). If you put 3 points into Virulence the requirement is reduced to 7% (not including Heroic Presence). Do keep in mind however that not all of our attacks are spells. You are required to get less hit rating to obtain 1% spell hit compared to melee hit, so make sure to check your Spell tab for your actual hit rating.

What stats to aim for:

With the launch of TBC tanks started to gem for stamina so they don't have to rely on RNG (Random Number Generator) for their survivability. Of course you might get lucky dodge/parry streaks by gemming for avoidance, but you might also get unlucky and take several hits in a row and die. A tank that gemmed for stamina could have survived that just because of the higher HP pool which also gives your healers more time to heal you up. You can always rely on stamina because there is no RNG involved and the main goal of a successful raider should be to reduce the possible amount of RNG to a minimum. Avoidance has become more interesting in Cataclysm where healers now have limited mana consumption, but it is still inferior since it relies on RNG. If it doesn't proc when you need it to it does absolutely nothing for you, and this is and will always be its weakness, you cannot control it. Now, onto stamina; people make the mistake of thinking they need to always be topped off. This is not true. A Healer can easily keep you at 50% without consuming extra mana to bring you to 100%, when healers had just about unlimited mana and tanks could go from 100% to 20% in 2-3 blows or even less being constantly topped off was a requirement, this no longer applies.

As awesome as Stamina is, Mastery is great as well. The more of it you can get the stronger your Blood Shield gets so its a good idea to reforge as much Avoidance as possible into Mastery.

Do note that as of 4.0.1 Dodge and Parry have identical Diminishing Return now, so one is greater than the other only if you have less of it.

Some Formulas to keep in mind:
Stamina = Vengeance = Threat
Mastery = Blood Shield = Absorb

Another thing to keep in mind is that you'll always want to have Plate Gear equipped, no matter what, otherwise you lose the 5% Stamina bonus provided by Plate Specialization.
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Reforging allows you take 40% of one Stat and reforge it into another Stat that isn't already on that item. You cannot reforge base stats (Stamina, Strength, Agility, Spirit etc, white stats basically) or Sockets. For example, you have an item with the following Stats:
100 dodge
58 parry

You can reforge either 100 dodge into 60 dodge and 40 mastery, or you can reforge 58 parry into 35 parry and 23 mastery. This process can be undone and you can have items reverted back to how they originally were. You cannot reforge more than 1 stat per piece of armor. If you reforge a stat and then want to reforge another one you need to revert the item back to how it originally was first and then change it. Keep in mind that you can only reforge Trinkets with "equip" stats. Proc and white stats cannot be reforged, which makes most trinkets be impossible to change. For example, you can reforge Corpse Tongue Coin but not Sindragosa's Flawless Fang.

What Stats should I Reforge from, and what Stats should I Reforge to?
The idea is to reforge Avoidance, excess Hit and Expertise all into Mastery. Seeing as both Dodge and Parry now have equal Diminishing Return you want to have even amounts of both, so for example, let's say you have:
21% Dodge
20% Parry

You'll want to reforge Dodge until you even out as much as possible.

Remember: you do not need to be hit capped to tank, although having the softcap of 26 expertise is recommended it is not entirely mandatory either if you can hold threat. Having more Hit and Expertise does however mean that less Abilities miss, more specifically Death Strike which delayed by 1.5 seconds can be an issue sometimes. Reforging is optional.

If Aiming towards Hit Cap and Expertise Soft-Caps:
Reforge Avoidance on Mastery Gear to Hit/Expertise.
Reforge Avoidance on Non-Mastery Gear to Mastery.
Excess Hit? See below.
Excess Hit but need more Expertise? Reforge excess Hit to Expertise.
Excess Expertise? See below.
Excess Expertise but need more Hit? Reforge excess Expertise to Hit.
Excess Expertise and Hit? Reforge to Mastery.
Excess Mastery? No such thing.

If aiming for highest possible Survivability:
Reforge Avoidance on Non-Mastery Gear to Mastery.
Reforge possible Hit/Expertise on Non-Mastery Gear to Mastery.
Reforge possible Hit/Expertise on Mastery Gear to Avoidance.

Where can you reforge? There are special Npcs for this. Guards in Capital Cities can point you to such Npcs.

If you're new to Reforging you might want to check out this new Addon, still in Development: Reforgenator.
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There are currently two ways to gem:
1. You go full Stamina in Blue Sockets and then Mastery/Avoidance or Threat (depending on what you need) in the other Sockets, with Mastery having Priority.
2. You go for full Mastery in every socket.

Both ways are possible, the "best" way still remains unresolved. This will be updated when it is discovered, in a few weeks.

If you're a Jewelcrafter you should focus on getting 3 of Fractured Chimera's Eye in your gear giving you a total of 51 extra Mastery.

Things to know:
- Gemming for Hit is no longer viable, it shares the same color as Stamina now, and you can reach it through Reforging if you want to. You can't Reforge for Stamina though.
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Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting are the best professions you can get right now. With Jewelcrafting you gain 123 Stamina from Solid Chimera's Eye and with Blacksmithing you gain 2 Sockets for Bracers and Gloves which give you 120 more Stamina for a total of 243 extra Stamina. You can also obtains patterns to craft better Gear for yourself and Patterns to get Gems easier without having to rely on another Jewelcrafter. Both professions give you a high amount of profit. Another option would be Mining since at 525 it also gives you 120 Stamina. Its not as flexible as the JC Gems or the BS Sockets which you can use whatever kind of stats you want, however it helps you level up Jewelcrafting or Blacksmithing a lot faster (not to mention cheaper).

There is currently an issue where Leatherworking pulls ahead by a strong amount compared to other professions due to their Bracer Enchant granting way more than 120 Stamina, seeing as there's a missing +75 Stamina Bracer Enchant right now. This will hopefully be sorted at some point in the near future however.

Also, Engineers: Nitro Boosts can now back-fire and cause serious issues which makes them no longer viable for use as a Tank unfortunately.
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Flask: Flask of Steelskin

Food:Use the stat you need the most for the fight you are doing.


Potions: You will most likely use Earthen Potions all the time, but make sure you are carrying some Mythical Healing Potions with you. You can use an Earthen Potion before you engage a boss which gives you the possibility to use it midfight once more.
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  • Focus Macro
Code: Select all
/focus

Very important for almost every bossfight.

  • Healing Macro
Code: Select all
#showtooltip
/castsequence  reset=60 Raise Dead,  Death Pact

First it casts Raise Dead to summon a pet and then it uses Death Pact to heal you. Resets every 60 seconds (you might die before you get a chance to use it).

  • Lichborne Macro
Code: Select all
#showtooltip Lichborne
/cast Lichborne;
/cast [@player] Death Coil

Basically it casts Lichborne, and then you keep pressing it to spam yourself with Death Coils for Healing.

  • Focus Target Taunt
Code: Select all
#showtooltip Dark Command
/cast [target=focus] Dark Command

This taunts your focus target without you having to target it, very handy.

  • Mouseover Taunt Target
Code: Select all
#showtooltip Dark Command
/cast [@mouseover] Dark Command

This one casts Dark Command on the Target that your mouse is hovering over.

For more Macros I suggest you try this site: WoWWiki Death Knight Macros
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DKI Runes - Rune addon, helps with tracking Rune cooldowns.

ForteXorcist - An addon to track your diseases and other abilities.

Blood Shield Tracker - An addon that tries to calculate how much Blood Shield will absorb for.

WakeSpams - An addon that announces when important abilities are used, highly customizable.

Omen - A threat meter, must have addon for tanks.

Reforgenator - An Addon to help out with Reforging so you don't need to re-do it 20 times.

Power Auras - A recommended Addon to track debuffs such as Frost Fever and Scarlet Fever to see if anyone else is applying them or if you need to.

Power Auras Code:
Instructions:
Type /powa
choose "Import"
Copy the code from here and paste it into the box that pops up.

-20% Attack Speed Debuff (Frost Fever; Applied through Outbreak and/or Icy Touch Baseline):
Code: Select all
Version:4.7; Instance25ManHeroic:true; target:true; icon:Ability_Paladin_JudgementsoftheJust; buffname:Frost Fever/Thunderclap/Judgements of the Just/Infected Wounds; x:-64; customname:Frost Fever; bufftype:2; Instance10ManHeroic:true; Instance5Man:true; Instance25Man:true; Instance10Man:true; customtex:true; Instance5ManHeroic:true; combat:true; size:0.23; y:74; inverse:true


-10% Physical Damage Debuff (Scarlet Fever; Applied by Blood Boil, Talented):
Code: Select all
Version:4.7; Instance25ManHeroic:true; target:true; icon:Ability_Creature_Disease_03; buffname:Scarlet Fever/Demoralizing Shout/Vindication/Curse of Weakness/Demoralizing Roar; x:88; customname:Blood Boil; bufftype:2; Instance10ManHeroic:true; Instance5Man:true; Instance25Man:true; Instance10Man:true; customtex:true; Instance5ManHeroic:true; combat:true; size:0.23; y:73; inverse:true


Basically here's how it works: It scans your Target for any type of Debuff that reduces either Attack Speed by -20% or Physical Damage done by -10%. If it can't find any, then it shows you the icon for that specific debuff.

The below Code shows you the icon for Will of Necropolis when its active, along with a timer showing uptime. When Will of the Necropolis fades, so does this graphic and timer.
Code: Select all
Version:4.7; icon:Ability_Rogue_FeignDeath; buffname:Will of the Necropolis; x:4; customname:81163; alpha:1; isResting:0; duration:8; exact:true; spec2:false; customtex:true; size:0.19; y:-42; texmode:2; ismounted:0; timer.Texture:Original; timer.enabled:true; timer.Relative:TOP; timer.x:-9; timer.ShowActivation:true

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In raiding you want to have a good, strong UI, nothing that gets in your way, especially as a Tank. When you're making up a Raiding UI there's only one really simple rule to remember: If its useful, have it, otherwise, eliminate it or hide it during Raiding. A cluttery UI full of useless addons isn't good.
This command is very important, it zooms your screen out to Max:
/console cameradistancemaxfactor 4
Every Tank should know that command. Above I listed some must Tanking Addons. Every person has different preferences when it comes to UIs so don't expect yours to look exactly the same.
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A Wise Sage once said: GearScore has more to do with Skill than you think... The more you care about it, the less you have.

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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0.1

Postby Gravity » 13 Oct 2010, 22:37

Great work Insolence, thanks. I've not proof read it, but I'm hoping the many other DK tanks here can help us.

We want consistency between this and Satorri's post (all facts should match), and any statements of best practice should also match.
Opinions could vary, if it's clear that they're opinions and not represented at facts or best practice.
Recommendations should be fairly similar.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0.1

Postby Insolence » 13 Oct 2010, 22:55

And I forgot anchors. Gj. Sorry folks coming right up. Meanwhile if anyone wants my Reforging results:

Pre-4.0.1 I had around 51% Avoidance total (dodge + parry). Post 4.0.1 I started with 22.38% dodge and 21.65% parry.
You start off with 8.00 Mastery.
Reforged my Ramaladni's crit into Mastery - 8.78.
Reforging just parry I ended up with 18.92% parry and 22.38% dodge.
I went from 8.78 Mastery to 13.16.
Switched shoulder enchant from pvp to greater inscription of the pinnacle and dodge went up to 22.50%.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Insolence » 15 Oct 2010, 03:13

After getting to some Raid Testing (which was next to impossible to do in Beta unfortunately) Bloodworms (Blood Parasites) have been found to be very lackluster compared to what was originally thought. They're great if you're soloing content, Questing, or doing Heroics, but for Raids they're as big of a waste of points as you can get unfortunately.

I have updated the Guide to reflect this, my apologies. Everything else seems to be fine however.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Wake » 17 Oct 2010, 06:45

Just leaving this here.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1

Read through the 22 pages in one go, time just flew.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby ninzia » 19 Oct 2010, 23:27

Hello
I was just wondering is there any reason to specifically reforge only parry? Isn't parry = dodge nowadays?
If so wouldn't you want to have the same amount of dodge as parry cause of DR's?
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Insolence » 19 Oct 2010, 23:51

Parry Diminishing Return is much greater than that of Dodge, if you were to Reforge all available amounts of Avoidance (mostly Dodge) you'd lose a lot more Avoidance and it could lead to more potential Threat issues. I don't recommend it right now because I know that some DPS have issues learning/remembering that they need to watch Omen for Threat control from now on, and less Avoidance = less Rune Strike = less Threat Generated which could cause even more issues than the ones already created when someone gets lazy/forgets to check Omen, overaggroes and then kills themselves.

Once 4.0.3 (or whenever the Rune Strike change) arrives I'll most probably be recommending Reforging all possible Avoidance however.

@Wake Thanks for that, haven't gotten around to reading it all but its an interesting read so far. TBC Pally coming back? Heh.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby ninzia » 20 Oct 2010, 01:11

Parry and Dodge now have same diminishing returns (4.0.1).
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-comb ... cataclysm/
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Insolence » 20 Oct 2010, 02:52

Sorry I mean how they stack, Dodge stacks faster than Parry (you get a lot more of it on Gear). If you were to Reforge it all you'd lose a lot more Avoidance. By Reforging just Parry you'll lose about 2%. By Reforging Dodge + Parry you can end up quite a bit lower.

Wrote the wrong thing up there heh. Sorry.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Satorri » 20 Oct 2010, 15:34

I expect I'm not understanding you right, but...

Right now Dodge and Parry have the same rating exchange and cap they diminish to. That means that whichever you have less rating of will give you a larger %avoidance gain for adding an equal amount.

So, if you have 1200 dodge rating and 800 parry rating, moving dodge rating to parry rating will increase your total avoidance. It will be a small gain, but one without a cost.

If, on the other hand, you have the above ratings, and you want to move one to Mastery, you will lose less avoidance per rating transfered from Dodge because you have more.

I think what you mean, Insolence, is that a lot of gear has more Dodge rating on it (from the old system), so you will move more *rating* from dodge, so you will drop more avoidance to get the other stat value? That would be true, but I would offer two points:
1.) If you're swapping Dodge to Parry, you will lose nothing but balance the scales more rapidly.
2.) If you're moving to Mastery, I assume you're doing it on the expectation that it will be more effective than avoidance for survival, so you shouldn't fret about giving up more % avoidance anyway, no?

The loss of dodge/parry for RS procs, though, is less enjoyable. =(
Last edited by Satorri on 20 Oct 2010, 15:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Insolence » 20 Oct 2010, 18:46

If I recall correctly Parry was changed to Dodge's Formula for 3.2 though didn't it? Or did they do something to Avoidance in 4.0 and I missed it?

Also, since I'm getting rather confused now - You're saying Reforging Dodge is a lesser loss to Reforging Parry because we stack Dodge higher which means the Diminishing Return is higher so less Avoidance = more Avoidance gained from the next upgrade? If I understood right then yes, that's so, but you would still lose more Avoidance total meaning less Rune Strikes wouldn't you?

I didn't do the testing 100 times over or anything though, and I'll try it again assuming I can even log into the game (kinda stuck atm).
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Satorri » 20 Oct 2010, 19:11

Current values for Dodge and Parry are the same 45.25 rating per 1% un-diminished avoidance. The change is that before 4.0.1 they had different caps (88% for Dodge and 47% for Parry) resulting in the huge discrepancy between their avoidance values from rating, about 1.8x was the factor. So Parry wouldn't offer as much % avoidance as Dodge until you had more than 1.8x more Dodge than Parry (rough, it's a little trickier than that). 4.0.1 put them both at a ~65% cap, so they are identical in avoidance value at the same rating level.

The trick is two-fold that I am talking about above:
1.) Whichever rating is higher is offering less % avoidance for the same amount of rating added (and on the inverse, taking away that amount reduces the avoidance by the smaller amount).
2.) ICC gear was loaded up with a lot more Dodge than Parry so there were a few pieces I had where the Dodge rating was 100+ while most Parry ratings are less.

So, if you have 1200 Dodge rating and 800 Parry rating, you can take 100 Dodge rating and turn it into 100 Parry rating and your total avoidance will go up. No cost (beyond money), only benefit.

The tricky part with #2 is that when you actually look at your gear, and you are moving the rating to something that is not avoidance (Mastery for example), you are faced with this dilemma:
If you have 1000 Dodge rating (~17.10% *actual* dodge chance) and 700 Parry rating (12.98% *actual* parry chance), and the gear has 100 Dodge rating and 50 Parry rating, you can reforge in one of two ways:
Remove 40 dodge rating (0.52% actual dodge lost) to add 40 rating of whatever else you're adding.
-or-
Remove 20 parry rating (0.30% actual parry lost) to add 20 rating of whatever else you're adding.

For the rating gained, you got better avoidance value for the rating gained in the other stat from the parry rating (0.015% lost per 1 rating gained, instead of 0.013), but in smaller total quantity. If they had equal ratings on the gear, but your totals were the same as above, dropping the Dodge would be the best solution, period.

So, for the proportional value, whichever rating is higher can shed an equal amount with less harm to your total avoidance and total chance to proc RS, but the design of gear carried over with bigger Dodge values will result in a larger loss of avoidance because of that.

Oy, gone cross-eyed yet?

The fine print is that if you are:
A.) Trading avoidance into Hit/Expertise, and aiming for the soft-cap, so long as the reforge doesn't over-steer you, you will always get the better deal reforging the stat that you have more rating of.
B.) Trading into Mastery, if you believe Mastery is getting you more survival, then it doesn't matter how much you are moving, you are still getting better value from moving from the bigger stat pool.

The end result is that it only really gets messy when you're trying to hit multiple caps precisely, and get the best of some other value after. =) Probably not worth too much thinking, you can just reforge whichever you have more rating of.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Insolence » 20 Oct 2010, 20:16

Bah totally missed the Avoidance change, fail.
Ok so I'm Re-doing the Reforging Tests. Pre-4.0.1 I had around 51% Avoidance total (dodge + parry). Post 4.0.1 I started with 22.38% dodge and 21.65% parry.
You start off with 8.00 Mastery.
Reforged my Ramaladni's crit into Mastery - 8.78.
Switched Shoulder enchant to Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle from the PvP one and Dodge went up to 22.50%.

Reforging just Parry I ended up with 18.92% parry and 22.38% dodge.
I went from 8.78 Mastery to 13.16, for a total of 82% Absorb.

Reforging highest amount of Avoidance per-piece of Gear (when it was tie between dodge and parry went for whatever I had a higher stat of) I ended up with 19.13% Dodge and 19.74% Parry.
I went from 8.78 Mastery to 17.39 for a total of 108% Absorb.

So going from base you lose about 5% Avoidance but the amount of damage absorbed is doubled. Now if they bring in that talented 20% Rune Cooldown reduction that means more Death Strikes on a minute basis with more damage absorbed.

I can see how this will be a Survivability boost, but that 3% less Avoidance could still make a difference to those Dps that still think they're too elite to check Omen for whatever reason, so I still remain rather biased, at least until the Rune Strike change comes in of course. I will try and get a chance to do some actual Raid Testing though.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Frozen » 20 Oct 2010, 20:29

Yeah, I'm having issues with snap agro and on bosses that cast. Like LDW. Looking forward to the buffs.
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Re: Death Knight Tanking Guide 4.0

Postby Satorri » 21 Oct 2010, 12:07

I think the 20% rune haste and no longer relying on avoidance to proc RS will be a huge carrot for this.

Then I can totally see Mastery becoming a powerhouse stat provided you don't avoid hitting DS altogether.

I still need to get a good gauge of myself in raid action to see how often I really do hit DS.
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