Frost tank spec in 3.3

[Insolence]

So the difference between Epidemic and non-Epidemic doesn't seem that big. Wonder if it's the same for every spec since Frost Specs didn't always even go for Epidemic even without the IT Threat buffbomb.

[Kuren]

After playing around with it some more, I think you're right. That final spec looks to possibly be the best option there is.

I may respec to it and see how it works out.

Insolence, I'd say the no Epidemic build is good enough to go with that. Looking at the numbers Gravity provided, it is 400 TPS. The DPS difference isn't that big either.

[Insolence]

Err should I go with the notion that you meant "No Epidemic" for Frost and "Epidemic" for Blood/Unholy? Would make a bit more sense to me.... :O

[Kuren]

I was specifically referring to Frost, but it's very possible that dropping Epidemic is once again a threat boost even for Blood. In another thread Gravity found that Epidemic is a net loss for Unholy too. I'm guessing Blood will be the same way. The extra threat makes it worth while to cast more IT's when tanking.

[Insolence]

Eh for 400ish TPS I don't see it worth enough to change Cookie-Cutter Builds and re-spec entirely. Won't make a big difference if your DPS is right behind you and about to Threat Cap you. It'll probably get Hotfix Nerfed by next Wednesday if Blizzard notices a spam-load of DKs suddenly switching away from Epidemic to do an "IT Spam Rotation" though. They already said they'll be keeping an eye on it.

[Gravity]

Note "IT Spam Rotation" is not the same as "no epidemic rotation".

No epidemic is IT PS OB BS BS, as you know.

IT spam is IT IT PS BS BS, IT IT IT IT.

I'm fairly sure IT spam is what Blizzard hate, but no epidemic isn't so bad. (They don't like no 'reaping' much though, which is good for Unholy tanks, but has been for ages without prompting action).

[Kuren]

Not using Epidemic is going to be one way to differentiate tank and DPS rotations which is something they said they wanted to do.

[Futhark]

My non-epidemic "rotation" ends up looking a lot like this:

0) IT PS OB BS BS
---
1) OB OB IT PS
2) OB OB BS BS
3) IT PS OB OB
4) OB IT PS BS BS
-> go to 1 (or OBx3 if near death)

It looks complicated, but all I'm really doing is reapplying my diseases when FF is about to, or has just, expired with the first Frost/Death Rune available. And this would be on a non-movement fight only anyway; other fights would just start at the beginning as soon as I re-engage. Frost still works best, for me, as a priority system.

Another thing to note, is the occurrence of strikes are almost exactly the same as an Epidemic rotation (though scattered around) with only trading a single OB for a IT PS, so the DPS hit is minimal and threat is increased.

[Xaris]

Crazy question & admittedly I haven't simmed this myself...

However in reading Gravity's post about the highest DW threat build being IIT & no Epidemic, with 3 SoB, 5 Bladed Armor, and 3 KM is there any logic or benefit to a build that skips Frost Strike & KM altogether in favor of extra points in Black Ice? How much threat & dps does FS/KM contribute to that build?

I'm thinking something like this build. Maybe you even take 1 or 2 less SoB and max Black Ice and put 1 in Endless Winter?

Just a crazy thought.

[Badhorse]

Crazy question & admittedly I haven't simmed this myself...

However in reading Gravity's post about the highest DW threat build being IIT & no Epidemic, with 3 SoB, 5 Bladed Armor, and 3 KM is there any logic or benefit to a build that skips Frost Strike & KM altogether in favor of extra points in Black Ice? How much threat & dps does FS/KM contribute to that build?

I'm thinking something like this build. Maybe you even take 1 or 2 less SoB and max Black Ice and put 1 in Endless Winter?

Just a crazy thought.

Heh, I just had a similar crazy idea: taking Gravity's 13/53/5 build and moving the 3 points in Blood of the North into Black Ice. I simmed it with my DK's stats and Gravity's priority list and came up with 6853 TPS for this build vs. 6453 TPS with Grav's build, although it should be noted that losing BotN was a slight DPS loss. Basically it's trading OBs and FS damage for more and stronger ITs, thus the better threat. Of course there's probably something I'm overlooking that would make this a bad idea.

[Kuren]

I'm interested to see if Gravity can re-check it. My results with Kahorie's are slight different but I think the only difference is the gear and possibly buffs. I'm seeing that 3/3 SoB isn't ideal. 1-2 points in it and then focusing on KM and BI. I believe that trying to move points into Endless Winter resulted in less threat.

I'm guessing that the buffs are making a difference as I left them all checked. I really doubt my gear alone accounts for the larger TPS numbers I'm seeing. I may walk through this and record all the results though and post the entire list here.

My usual disclaimer though is that I'm only interested in IIT-based builds for now.

In another threat we've realized that Kahorie's may not be dealing with armor as we suspected or correctly which could slightly skew the numbers but maybe not too much since it is just a small difference in AP.

[Killien]

Hey there! I wanted to add on a small question. If I read correctly from some of the other posts, the Rime chance is no longer increased by dual-wielding, meaning much less reliability of Howling Blast being as free as it used to be. That, combined with the increased threat on IT is making me wonder about my decision to roll with the Howling Blast glyph.

On single target, I've never had issues, and my rotation won't change much. I watch my threat and add in more IT casts when my DPSers ride high. My major concern is that I've always felt my AE threat to be shamefully low, and it appears to be worse now. D&D, Blood Boil, and Howling Blast just don't seem to cut it as much as they used to, especially with the reduced chance of my Obliterates to give me a freebie extra Howling Blast.

So two questions pop up: If not Howling Blast, which Glyph is going to give me the most threat-bang for my buck?
Additionally: Any tips on compensating for my slightly lower threat, aside from the terrible tab+IT+tab+IT rotation hell? It hasn't been an issue so far, and perhaps simply getting a better threat mod that handles multiple targets is a good solution.

[Gravity]

Killen, you need to explain if this is for AOE or single-target threat, for the most useful answer.

[Killien]

Oh! sorry I thought I'd said it. Mostly I'm running heroics and the occasional ICC-10. My single target threat is great right now, especially with the buff. I'm more worried about my AE threat.

[Gravity]

AOE glyph are HB and IT. If you use them both, it'd be pretty good. D&D is strong but I'd not use it in a Frost build.