Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

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Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Kahorie » 16 Aug 2010, 15:28

Hi guys,

I'm actually rewritting a lot of code for the Cataclysm version of the sim and I really like to improve the tanking options.

The goal of this thread is collect ideas and suggestions to make my sim more useful for the Tank population. I don't give the word to make all wishes come true but I could add some stuff when time permits.
I would make 2 categories:
What is really missing
  • Tanking stats in the gear selector with summary
  • ???

What would be useful
  • A boss editor where you can tell his strikes, spells.
  • EH calculator.
  • A tank oriented report with absorb.
  • ???

Once the list would be more complete, we could discuss a priority order for implementation.
You can try the latest version here (web-based).

ps: This thread is not for support. Please send me a pm if you have issues with the sim.
Kahorie.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Zao » 16 Aug 2010, 16:59

Hey, yet another well known face here. Welcome!
First: I'm not too familiar with your sim, so bear with me if something already is implemented.

Whitehit->Rune Strike conversion Rate.
The obvious TPS calculator would also be cool.

Aside from that, a few minor stat fixes for the Threat values, ie Expertise having twice it's value before Softcap and so on.

Edit: Just had an ida...but I'm not sure how to implement it:


A DTPS calculator, where you could modify the bosses swingtimer/damage per hit/casts
With an eye towards cata, that would ease up comparison of pieces.
Last edited by Zao on 16 Aug 2010, 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Kahorie » 16 Aug 2010, 20:06

Zao wrote:Whitehit->Rune Strike conversion Rate.
The obvious TPS calculator would also be cool.

Aside from that, a few minor stat fixes for the Threat values, ie Expertise having twice it's value before Softcap and so on.

Edit: Just had an ida...but I'm not sure how to implement it:

Hi there,
It's already available when you set the presence to frost presence in the live version or blood presence in the Cata one.

Zao wrote:A DTPS calculator, where you could modify the bosses swingtimer/damage per hit/casts
With an eye towards cata, that would ease up comparison of pieces.

Noted. that the kind of idea I look for.
Anyway, current and future evolution of the sim will all be for Cataclysm
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Kahorie » 17 Aug 2010, 15:46

Here is how I imagine the boss editor:
Like the scenario editor, you can add items with predifine options.
Item 1: boss strike
- frequency
- unmitigated damage
- school (physical, magical)
Item2: Incomming heal/Shield
Item3: Cd usage(external or internal)
Item4: off tanking time.

Every items would be duplicateable to sim e.g. normal strike and the big ones.
I'm missing something?
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Insolence » 17 Aug 2010, 17:09

One thing when you do the Off Tanking stuff, and Rotations. As Off Tanks we have 0 Rune Strikes so for Runic Empowerment Runes we have to use Death Coil, been a while since I used the sim so I dont remember if it has RP Priorities or whatnot but just throwing that out there incase you need to alter the code or something.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Kahorie » 17 Aug 2010, 18:34

Insolence wrote:One thing when you do the Off Tanking stuff, and Rotations. As Off Tanks we have 0 Rune Strikes so for Runic Empowerment Runes we have to use Death Coil, been a while since I used the sim so I dont remember if it has RP Priorities or whatnot but just throwing that out there incase you need to alter the code or something.

Yes the RP dump has to be define the priority. So for a tank it would be something like:

1- Frost Fever
2- Blood Plague
3- Scarlet Fever
4- Death Strike
5- Heart Strike
6- Rune Strike
7- Death Coil
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Insolence » 17 Aug 2010, 18:52

Hm I'd put Rune Strike right under Fever since it takes up a GCD. If you get another Rune Strike proc while you're doing HS/DS first Rune Strike is a waste.

Otherwise ok good to know the RS/DC issue is solved.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Gravity » 19 Aug 2010, 04:52

Hi Kahorie,

Armour stat, toughness, bladed armour and blood presence.
Really missing: I wish it was easier to input these without doing maths. Some items have bonus armour which is not multiplied by blood presence.
In the UI, it's unclear whether you should enter the armour figure before or after blood presence and toughness.
I don't know what would be simplest to implement, but the requirement is that there is no ambiguity for the user when typing in their "armour" score. Also, if you pull XML from the Armory, you need to insert that into a field which then says something like "this has bonus armour in it" so the user can do a manual adjustment. I don't know if the XML gives you the bonus armour as a separate integer, but if so, you could pull it out right away.
All these have to be right for attack power to calculate correctly.

EP
Nice to have: It'd be great if I could build a spec, then calculate the EP values to show TPS per stat (not DPS). The AP equivalance is still useful.
Be nice if the sim could calculate the TPS values of particular talents, such as the TPS for 3/3 SoB -vs- 3/3 blood caked blade. (Perhaps being able to specify which talents you are interested in 'trading off' for one another for the purpose of the sim, since it would always be a few limited trade-offs like those two vs abominations might).

Rotation/priority
Cataclysm priority will be a little more complex than in WotLK. For rune strike, the current Kahorie implementation will need some work.
Really required: able to specify the minimum RP to keep at all times (to save for RS), instead of just being 20. For death coil, the priority you have already to 'use DC only when at max RP' is probably how DK tanks will play, so make sure that choice remains.
Have a priority to 'use RS' on the next available GCD.
Depending on how the Scarlet Fever debuff ends up (currently it is caused by Blood Boil), we will need a few priorities for that: (a) do a PS/BB combo in order to take advantage of the talent Crimson Scourge, (b) do BB within 5 seconds prior to its debuff expiring, (c) Scarlet Fever priority, which people could then put up the top of priority list after frost fever.

Nice to have: able to specify how many blood runes per minute should be presumed to have been used by tanking cooldowns (rune tap and vampiric blood). I think x/min is the way to do it. Don't try to simulate boss damage spikes or whatever, it'd be hard to do and not helpful anyhow. Probably make those uses of the blood rune be at some random time within each one-minute window, but not within the first 30s of a fight (since it's very rare we'd use a tank cooldown after pulling a boss). Have the sim simply 'use' the blood rune, to put it on cooldown.
A few options for Rune Strike priority, so we can play with variations but it might be academic since I'm almost certain that all tanks should use rune strike asap its available, in order to benefit from runic empowerment. Options would be: (a) use RS only when both blood runes are on cooldown, or (b) use RS when at least one blood rune is on cooldown.

For EH/ absorbs
Not needed.
I really like Kahorie's sim as my tool for threat calculation. It's done that superbly for me since you put the RS/frost presence changes in. For Cataclysm, I'm happy for it to remain a TPS calculator.
I'll use Rawr for all my gear decisions, and its modelling for tanking cooldown/mitigation is already really mature so I suggest you don't worry about that. Shazear will keep the tanking module in Rawr probably the best way to make gear and gem decisions, since it has such a robust system already including spell damage, attack speed, etc.
I don't think Kahorie's sim needs to model absorbs (blood shield) nor EH nor spell deflection (therefore you don't need to worry about how often a boss does spell damage, Rawr handles this already).
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Kahorie » 20 Aug 2010, 15:20

Hi! I hope there is not a rule here for quote splitting.


Armour stat, toughness, bladed armour and blood presence.
This should/will be made automatically when you build you your character. I did'nt yet include all the tank stats (Dodge, Parry, Addidtion Armor...) but this won't require more user action that selecting your gear. I also have to add enchant/gem/sigil/runeforge related to tanks.

EP
In fact it's working like that in the old client. Technically the sim store the TPS instead of the DPS when you select frost presence. In the Cata client, obviously it's the blood presence. But the "Talent DPS EP Value" is not yet available in the cata client.

Perhaps being able to specify which talents you are interested in 'trading off' for one another for the purpose of the sim, since it would always be a few limited trade-offs like those two vs abominations might.
If it's just to compare 2 spec, It might be easier to just create 2 separeted and run the sim using both of them.

Rotation/priority
able to specify the minimum RP to keep at all times (to save for RS)
It's possible. Maybe adding it in the tank option panel instead of Priority editor.
Have a priority to 'use RS' on the next available GCD.
Not sure to understand this one. It's would be like RS would be the top priority, and there would be nothing to do on my side.
(a) do a PS/BB combo in order to take advantage of the talent Crimson Scourge, (b) do BB within 5 seconds prior to its debuff expiring, (c) Scarlet Fever priority

Easily done via new priority.

Nice to have:
able to specify how many blood runes per minute should be presumed to have been used by tanking cooldowns (rune tap and vampiric blood).
(a) use RS only when both blood runes are on cooldown, or (b) use RS when at least one blood rune is on cooldown.
I have to think of how it could be integrated. The most difficult part of this kind of options is how to make the users not run away when they see all thoses stuffs.


For EH/ absorbs
Not needed.
I don't think Kahorie's sim needs to model absorbs (blood shield) nor EH nor spell deflection (therefore you don't need to worry about how often a boss does spell damage, Rawr handles this already).

We'll discuss that another day.

Thanks for feedback.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Gravity » 20 Aug 2010, 20:53

Yeah, to compare two specs I normally run two sims. Was just mentioning it as a shortcut.
For the "next gdc" you 're right, that's normal priority behavior.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Kahorie » 21 Sep 2010, 18:18

I'm wondering how to integrate "the cooldown on your Rune Tap ability is refreshed" part on Will of the Necropolis. I think of something like 2 or 3 not avoided boss strike. Maybe firing a CD every time the 3 strike in a row occurs.

what do you guys think ?
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Gravity » 22 Sep 2010, 03:23

I wouldn't model it at all.
If you have at least modelled that Rune Tap is going to be used (via a priority system), that'd be enough for me.
I would not want to model around will of the necropolis, because it's a Plan B talent; tanks don't rely on it in their rotation or gear selection or anything. They just smile if it saves their life.
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Re: Kahorie DK sim - WTB Tank suggestions.

Postby Gravity » 14 Oct 2010, 11:52

I have implemented the EJ-style table code, so you can copy/paste from Kahorie's sim reports into the forums here.
Read more.
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